Montgomery Gentry - “Back When I Knew it All”

If you take the time to listen to the second verse of “back when I knew it all” you will see that the theme was developed and there is a definate contrast between past and present….but I’m sure you were so quick to find fault that you didn’t take the time to listen…..As for it being lazy amateur songwriting,could you please list your accomplishments as a hit songwriter…sure the theme has been done before, but what hasn’t…..I am proud to be a co writer on this song !

Brady, how could I possibly be proving his point when I am merely disagreeing with his comments about the material not moving from past to present…..it is quite clear that it does, if you listen to the entire song. There are no excuses here, just facts. I would not label your work lazy or amateurish even if I didn’t care for it.

Yes, I listened to the entire song. Multiple times in fact, as I do for all of my single reviews. Here’s the second verse:

I found out credit cards don’t mean you’re rich
and beer and gasoline don’t mix
yeah step side trucks can’t jump a ditch
and those ” big house” rooms sure are small
i’ve learned that love is a woman that will settle you down
a sunday sermon can turn life around
man i can’t believe all the answers i’ve found
since back when i knew it all

That verse represents what I think is wrong with country songwriting today: it’s just a laundry list. There’s no development there, you’re just rattling off life experiences, just like you did in the first verse, as if hitting enough anecdotes so that every listener can identify with at least one of them is more important than painting a cohesive picture or advancing a narrative. Furthermore, you’re portraying a future that’s stuck in the past: “life ran on beer and gasoline” in the first verse becomes “beer and gasoline don’t mix” in the second verse. Singing one thing in the first verse and its opposite in the second verse is the cheapest way of “accomplishing” what you set out to do here. That and the fact that I could’ve pasted the first verse into any number of recent singles without anybody noticing is why I called the writing lazy.

We’ve had a number of major songwriters stop by this board and respond to our critiques of their work and to a man they’ve all suggested that they’re above our criticism because they’ve had more hit cuts. I’m still waiting to hear adequate justification for the argument that someone who does not have extraordinary musical ability is not able to differentiate between good and bad music.

Thanks for the congrats on the cuts I have on this album ,they are hard to get. I in no way meant to insinuated that Matt’s remarks were lazy nor amateurish ,I just disagreed with them.This is a discussion after all. We all hear songs differently, I think there is still a decent way to voice your opinion even if you don’t like something and to say that Montgomery gentry records material that asks nothing and gives nothing to their fans is wrong and their recent Grammy nomination proves it. Thanks for the invite to stop by more often, I will.

I can’t believe any song from Montgomery Gentry is worthy of so much intelligent discussion or drama. If M-G fans were musically demanding, they wouldn’t be M-G fans in the first place. (Boy, this being a crusty old traditional country loving curmudgeon can be so tiring at times….)

MG’s recent grammy nomination is farcical at best. Are you really telling me that in ALL of country music–and this is the grammys so we’re talking big tent country music–”Lucky Man” was one of the five best vocal performances? If you honestly believe that, you either don’t have a very deep relationship with country music, or your insane. Certifiably insane!

There are lots of reasons why songs are successful in today’s country music environment, but I’m not sure the criteria always involves quality.

I don’t fault he writers for writing this song. I know how tough it is, and you gotta write what people are willing to cut. But commercial country is in a very homogeneous era, and just because something is cut doesn’t mean that it’s “good” when compared to songs from a cross section of eras.

Frankly, I’m tired of songs that teach me lessons. I’m tired of songs that summarize some little slice of life, wrapped up neatly in a 3-minute up-tempo bow. I’m tired of babies and marriage and America and loving you (and the road).

I miss country music with subtly. I miss country music with subtext. I miss country music that is bittersweet. And I’m not a crusty old traditional country loving curmudgeon…you don’t have to look very far back to find all of the above.

I was reminded of this yesterday when I heard Reba’s “And Still”–a song from the 90s. It’s a simple song. A song that really doesn’t try to do too much. But wow, talk about the emotional impact of that hook.

And that song would never, ever, in a million years be released as a single today.

Or maybe it would. It’s not all doom and gloom. Look at “Stay”. Great songs rise up.

But the point here is that just because a song is a hit, or scores a grammy nod, doesn’t make it an artistic success.

Songwriters have to make money, because they, like other professional entertainers, enjoy eating. And this is what the market wants. Because radio needs to sell ads to soccer moms in vans who love Jesus and listen to the radio fifteen minutes a day. Those moms probably can’t name three Willie Nelson songs (hell, they probably can’t name three Clint Black songs), and so even though this songs has been written 30,000 times, it doesn’t matter, because they’ve never heard it.

Gary, my question to you then, is this: are art and entertainment the same thing?

Because if you’re willing to say that, you’d have to be willing to say that John Grisham is a “better” author than, I don’t know, Daniel Handler.

Sure, Grisham sells more…but he’s writing formulaic pop-fiction. Is it good? Sure, in the sense that it’s fun to read. Does that make it art? Can a manga artist be compared to Picasso?

The “art” argument was not the main point I was making, but I’m glad you honed in on it, because it’s an important discussion.

That’s true, there is definitely a level of subjectivity at play. But I think that if you go back to my original point, you’ll see that’s exactly what I’m talking about…and, to that extent, I am not levying a criticism against your song so much as I am levying a criticism against the environment that cultivated it.

You might think Ball Park Franks are the best meal ever devised. That’s subjectivity, and no one in the universe can tell you you’re wrong. What sucks is when society at large becomes satisfied with eating mostly Ball Park Franks, and all the food companies start producing hot dogs, buns, mustard and relish, to the point where it becomes difficult to find a nice steak.

I can remember when Alabama had a baseball song on the radio. Then Reba has a song that dealt with AIDS. Garth proclaimed that we should be free to love anyone we chose. Tim was an Indian Outlaw. For God’s sake this was only the 90s. Do I need to go back further?

Where are these songs now? Is that subjectivity? Did society suddenly stop liking these types of songs? Or did the format realize that it could broaden its advertising base by taking the chocolate chunks out and selling the ice cream as vanilla?

It’s not a linear equation. It’s not like radio says “we want songs about babies,” and then publishers get all their staffers in a room and say “write us a song about babies!”

It’s a push-and-pull relationship that takes a little while to develop. A trend starts to take place and people catch on and roll with it.

In this case, I do think there has also been conscious effort on the part of country radio to expand its base. And I can’t really blame them for that, given the pressures their industry faces.

At some point it makes sense to draw a line in the sand and say that this is where subjectivity ends. Because even though you might think hot dogs are the world’s best food, Ball Park Franks will always be ground pork…stuff. They will never be made of steak, no matter how much you like ‘em.

PS. I respect you opinion very much, and I’m not saying that I wouldn’t jump at the chance to sit down and write the same damn song. I would love to see my BMI check expand by a couple of digits. And that’s not to say that being commercial means sacrificing all substance…it doesn’t. But it does mean changing what you do to fit the market–which speaks to Matt’s point.

….this has become one of my favorite websites to visit because of this type of discussion….i admire the open forum that this blog has become with intelligent discussions and interaction between the blog authors and the readers…..well the intelligence might have gone out the window on the readers side with the “Phil Stacey Revolt ” a few weeks back but i tend to agree with the Blog…and when i don’t i am glad that it truly becomes a discussion….Thanks guys….great site!

As I am reading th above comments, i notice that Tim McGraw’s video for “Suspicions” is playing on TV. If any of the writers are still checking in on this discussion, can one of y’all please tell me how this song went from what was likely some sort of country song in its origin to such a corny, pseudo-jazz, kenny g with biceps song that gets lumped in with country just cuz its friggin McGraw?? I cant stand Montgomery Gentry, but their new song might as well be “Will the Circle be Unborken” compared to that S***….

I agree, Mike. I think they have a spattering of excellent songs…”Tattoos and Scars,” “Speed,” and “Something To…” all come to mind.

What bothers me is not so much the writing of these hackneyed songs, but rather that good talented artists choose to sing these songs. I wish artists like M-G, Carrie, and occasionally, Kenny, would choose better lyrics in the future instead of sure hits.

I can’t believe you Jim Malec, how can you say “hey, blah blah blah”, about MG. They like the best. And if you aren’t or any other one of you people aren’t then why the heck are you on here messin’ with them. GET A LIFE! U know what, I’m sick of you people saying all of this stuff about people, they are just normal people like you and me and quite frankly, u people are just pretty much jealous that you don’t have a voice of an angel like Troy and Eddie. I mean Of course, like people who don’t listen to country, are always saying COUNTRY IS STUPID, IT”S NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF HILLBILLIES, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH! Get over your stupid slow selves and go rate you own retarded music and get out of here, the REAL music. PEOPLE, GET A LIFE!

I agree Lucas. The9513 is such a great site because people can have intelligent discussions without resorting to name-calling.

I disagree with many posts I see, but I appreciate those posts as much as the ones I agree with. Why? Because a post I disagree with makes me re-consider own thoughts; that leads to a better understanding whether I come to change my view or not. We often learn more about ourselves and our musical tastes from those who disagree with us than those who agree.

If you don’t think I should bash other people then why did you did you say “If you don’t like it Kimberly,” you singled me out, Lucas!

Troy Gentry shoots bears in cages. nuff said!

um, ezcuse me Kat, it was something he regrets very much, GET OVER YOURSELF FOOL! And u Paul pshhhh! that is like the bestest song ever!

The only thing on the bear incident is Troy regrets is the fact this was made public.

I enjoy these discussions so much. Until children like Kimberly get involved, anyway. Montgomery Gentry does have a good sound and potential to be really memorable. They just need to record songs worth remembering.

People are pathetic, the only thing that they can talk about is a 13 year old girl who gets straight A’s, is her teachers fave. student, and very quiet in class. Talk about bashing someone!
Lord, I don’t even know what to say, just help these people.

umm… you know I would say something back, but it would be rude, and unlike other people I am only rude if I have to be.

And Troy, If your reading this I LOVE YOU!

Britney killed a tame bear? Oh, crap.

Finding a critic whose tastes line up with yours can be a great way to find music you’ll enjoy and avoid music you won’t.

I made an error:

I was LOL at Chris N. regarding Britney!

Craig, your posts make perfect sense. People should listen to music they enjoy and what makes them feel good!

Ha, responding to the one post about not needing critics. If that were true a lot of us would be out of jobs. I think many people find a few critics or even whole publications who have credibility and a good ear for music and listen to those to help make their decisions since they can’t listen to the 50 new albums or singles that come out each week.

Ok, ladies and gentleman, I think that’s enough in here. I don’t see this ending any time soon, so let’s try to keep the discussion on the song and artists.

I’ll kill a bear…it’s most likely thinking about killing me anyways

The name for the Teddy Bear actually came from Theodore Roosevelt’s refusal to shoot a captured bear. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

Oh, and Kelly, the bear whisper done did got ate already.

Craigtastic is a word my fwends made up, just to let ya know!

Lets be very clear that mere ownership of something does not entitle a person to do whatever they want with it.

I own my house, but I cannot blare music at 3 am from my living room. I own a computer, but i cannot legally use it to access child porn. I own my car, but I cannot legally drive it at 100 mph on the New Jersey Turnpike.

CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!

I have no relation to kimberly, i just mess up alot when i type, i try not 2 look at the keyboard. and yes i can read.

Kimberly/Kaylee, we have sufficient evidence to assume you are the same person, so quit trying to appear to be multiple people. We have an open comment policy here, so try not to take advantage of that and keep conversation civil, otherwise, we’ll have to shut comments down on this post.

I think that this is a good song. I agree with Heidi in the fact that I believe that a lot of people will be able to relate to this. I also think that this is a very Montgomery Gentry type song and that they were the right group to record it. And yes this theme is used a lot in country music, but so are the themes in every other country song.

Personally, I like the song.
It was featured on the radio station a few weeks ago for the public to vote on it. The result was 100% in favor of playing it. Small city, but people know what they like!
I’m no critic but I know what makes me feel good. Thanks to the writers and Montgomery Gentry for making me remember what I was like. It brought a smile to my face.

I liked the song and found it to be entertaining, which is why i listen to music in the first place. I will probably buy the Cd because of this song. I guess I am just a stupid music listener and not a professional review writer, so what do I know.

It’s a good song, but not a great song. It’s no “Speed”.

TOTALLY DIFFERENT DIRECTION HERE FOLKS! i haven’t purchased the cd or gone to the music store, so I have a question from anyone who has “Back When I Knew It All.” The guitarist, particularly in the intro sounds very much like Roger McGuinn (formerly of the Byrds from the 1960’s and responsible for their signature sound.) Is it him or were they just duplicating his sound? If so, did they any credit to his obvious influence on whoever is playing?

For those of you who weren’t around in the 1960’s, you could try to find a version of Mr. Tambourine Man by The Byrds on line and the intro is a good example of McGuinn’s sound. Then listen to the intro on “Back When I Knew It All” and decide for yourself. Thanks!

I just read Matt C’s take on Alan Jackson’s “Good Time” and I’m starting to wonder about this guy. Let’s see, 11 weeks in and MG is at number 11 on Billboard…a very quick move…..and look at Alan Jackson sitting pretty at number 19 only 4 weeks in! Does this guy have a clue?! I wonder how many of his “thumbs down” songs reach top 5 status, or number 1 for that matter?

I totally understand when fans read a negative review of a favorite artist and question the review, or even get upset (it was hard for me to handle hearing people talk bad about steve earle in another thread). But to piggy-back on what Mike said above, if you are a fan of an artist that is reviewed on this site and you dont like it, please refrain from using chart status and sales figures as your ONLY testament to why that act or song is great! Anyone with half a brain knows that stinkin’ rascal flatts sells a ton, or that lil’ taylor swift wins a bunch of awards and that montgomery gentry does well on radio. Tell us why you think the song is great, tell us why the lyrics or the arrangement really set the song apart from the other dreck that is often sharing the same space on the charts.

WOW!! - was this (incredibly long) discussion thread refreshing or WHAT?!? Aside from the (presumably raging pubescent hormonal?) outbursts from our A-student 13 year old, THIS is/was an example of INTELLIGENT DEBATE as is too-seldom seen ANYWHERE these days, when it seems to me that the mediocrity brought on (I presume) by the homogeny of Political Correctness is subsuming every intellectual exertion - no matter how minimal…I, too, came here simply because I was curious to see what all this ‘new/old’ direction stuff was about (personally, I am absolutely no fan of M.G. but LOVE the song ‘People Change’ - hence my interest…and disappointment to learn that the CD that cut was on fared so much worse than the previous ‘My Town’ - some of the cuts from which i’m familiar with and feel, frankly, express some pretty tired/hackneyed sentiments, albeit in a reasonably ‘fresh’ and very well-crafted way), and ended up taking 40 minutes out of my day reading the rest!!! I belong to the school of folk who firmly believe that clear thinking is not only one of the things which keeps personal interaction interesting, but the ability to separate thoughts from emotions (hello, young A-student!! - they don’t seem to have taught you THAT yet…sadly) shouldn’t be restricted to University graduates, but is in fact a necessity if the entire planet and 6 billion people populating it are going to stop waging wars against each other and find ways to ‘agree to disagree’…phew, that’s a pretty lofty point to make, perhaps, in a song critique forum - but y’see, I’m NOT AFRAID TO SAY IT…which, in the Free World, IS THE POINT!!
;)
I am probably THE most opinionated person you’re ever likely to meet YET I VALUE HEARING THE VIEWS OF THE FELLOW-FOLK I SHARE THIS WORLD WITH!! - because i don’t live in a void, so my views are affected and shaped by what i hear (which - hopefully! - holds me off becoming a bigot…and there’s no room left in this world for bigots - if, indeed, there ever was…)!

The Art vs. Commerce debate is one which is close to my heart (yeah I’m a songwriter, too - amongst other numerous creative skills!) and I’m tired of hearing the same old hackneyed defenses and arguments from successful songwriters and artists apparently unable to distinguish between the two. I have NO problem with people being successful at what they do -( in fact, I’m on track to becoming very successful myself - natch!!), or people appreciating sub-standard (artistically speaking) work/craft. I just detest it when people try to sell me apples by telling me they’re oranges…’cause maybe I don’t like apples, y’know?! (I DO, but - note to our young student - this is an example of a ‘metaphor’!). And maybe I feel it’s an insult to my intelligence to tell me something’s what it’s clearly - to me, anyway - NOT?

We overlook - at our peril, as a society, anyway - the incredible powers of persuasion of the ADVERTISING/MARKETING/PUBLICITY MACHINE, peopled by folk who are deliberately taught how to use psychology to manipulate ‘the public’ into buying mediocre or unnecessary things. This ‘machine’ is used not only to sell soda and junk food, but MUSIC and ALL forms of artistic expression (good/bad/blah/brilliant) - so we NEED brave critics to keep us on track, i.e. to remind us when ‘the Emperor is wearing no clothes’ (hey A-grades kid; that was an example of an ‘analogy’, OK?)! Doesn’t even actually matter whether we agree whether the emperor is naked or not; what’s important is that people stop and think about something instead of zoning out and just eating whatever shows up on their plate/radio/tv/movie theatre.

Mike,
I appreciate your response but I will respectfully disagree with part of your statement. I understand the pint you are trying to make. This song is no “The Dance” or “Remember When” and could be considered the same over hashed subject matter. I get that and I partially agree that it may not be a great song like “Remember When” but compared to what is on the charts right now, what is? The facts are it is getting tougher to write songs that are unique in country because the subject matter has boundaries (can’t sing about pimpin’!). With hundreds of years of songs played out in every scenario, it is even more difficult to put something new and innovative in a song that someone hasn’t already done. With that being said, we still write about love, heartbreak, life, and death without someone stating that the subject is over hashed…..so why does it make that much difference if that is what the audience wants to hear? There are over 50 million people in the USA and I’m sure a good number of them listen to country music. Based on the history of record sales compared to chart success and critical success, I think we can safely assume that the general public as a whole, knows when they hear good music. In my opinion, I think there is very little difference between critical and commercial success, because they usually go hand in hand. Just because one guy, who happens to be a critic, does not like a song, does not mean that the song doesn’t have critical success. I believe that the other 50 million critics who choose to buy or request a song to be a far better gauge of critical success than one critic here.

OK guys this is how it works….thousands of writers submit their songs to an artist, his managment, the producer and a and r at the label by whatever means they have……publishers too are pitching material, artists are co writing for their own albums….EVERYONE is trying to make the album. These thousands of songs are whittled down by the label ,the artists and the producer……the few remaining songs are then chosen by a panel of proffessionals…..ie Label head , marketing , promotional staff, the producer and the artists themselves….in the mean time songs are still being submitted and considered……a batch of the remaining songs are then cut, sometimes they turn out great other times not ……outside songs are still being considered……A couple of the cut songs that turned out great are then considered for the first single and a panel gets to choose which…..It takes about 5 months for a single to run it’s course and hopefully peak around the same time as the album release. During this period, outside songs are still being considered……there is no one person who says what single is to be released it is a joint decision to best represents what the artist is wanting to say…..there are many great songs that are overlooked in this process but the cream usually rises…..God bless the broken road was 9 years old before it did anything….there are countless examples of older songs being cut and turning into hits.Every one from the writers , the Label staff, the producer, and the publishers work very hard to find the material that best represents the artist and so every one is doing their best at what they do best. Just sit back and enjoy the music ,it is supposed to be fun anyway……Even the great obscure artists have material that is less than desirable…..but we do not critique them….turn off your radio if you want…..or enjoy like I do.

Thanks Shane, yes we did go number one last week….it’s amazing to see how wrong these ” critics ” can be……..not bad for Lazy Amateur songwriting Hey…..Oh well , Two bad reviews and two number ones in the last couple of years I hope I keep getting them!

Gary, Congrats on the #1. I will ask though what makes the critics “wrong” as you suggested earlier? Are you suggesting that because a song hits number 1, that it is in fact, a high-quality song? Surely you can admit that there have been many songs that arent tremendous that reach the lofty status? I would imagine that most people agreed this song would be a hit, in fact, i think it’s quite easy to predict the sinlges that will be a hit, once they are released. Any song that Rascal Flatts releases as a single will become a hit, does that mean that “Bob Your Head” is a song that displays a high standard of writing? You have more talent in your waste-basket than I will ever have in my brain on my best days, but I am curious as to what you describe as a sucess and how critics are wrong in certain situations.

These “critics” are not wrong because our job is generally not to state whether or not a song is going to be a commercial success.

Give me a break, Gary. You know full well that there are three dozen writers singing better songs than this in Nashville tonight.

I don’t take anything away from you–you wrote a commercially viable hit, and it’s “good” in the sense that it will appeal to a certain market. But that doesn’t mean it’s artistically brilliant, and you are a smart enough person to know that.

Critics are not press agents, and it’s not our job to pander to the marketplace.

Here’s a notion — take a look at the songs that are No. 1 on Billboard’s other charts and let me know if they’re all brilliant examples of the songwriter’s art:

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/charts/singles_index.jsp

Thanks! You’re clearly a fine judge of quality.

I didn’t say turn off your radio, I said turn off your radio if you want…..I do every time I hear a commercial that is irritating or a song I don’t like, what I’m saying is you have a choice….exercise it! flip channels ,do whatever you need to .There will never be a commercial song written that everyone enjoys, taste varies so much, we like what we like and we don’t what we don’t and our tastes are constantly changing…..I never listened to Opera as a kid , but love it now!…..it’s that simple. I actually enjoy this site, that’s why I visit it so often….like my work or hate my work, that’s up to you …I am very grateful to be able to make a living at songwriting and thank God for that every day…if what I write encourages other songwriters to keep writing or puts a smile on someones face then I’ve accomplished something. I have played my songs on guitar on a regular basis to cancer patients as they go thru chemo and the positive response I get is far more rewarding than any commercial success…also don’t forget that most pro songwriters have many hundreds of uncut songs, some of which you might actually enjoy if you ever get to hear them.

Its ironic that the mainstream has been hollering “turn off your radio if you don’t like it” for some time and now they can’t figure out why no one is listening to or buying the music.

Good to know that songwriters can invoke cancer to deflect criticism even when the song in question has absolutely nothing to do with cancer.

Is the Gary that I was talking to the same gary who wrote the song? ONe is posted under “Gary” and the other is posted under both his first and last name with a link. Brady?

Well then, I too am indignant that he didn’t answer Kelly’s question.:)

Gary, for the record, I think there are far worse songs than “Back When I Knew It All.” It’s just that there are far better songs too. Furthermore, it’s hard for me to believe that the MG boys are far removed from what they say they’ve learned from back when they knew it all. Every interview I hear from them brags about their ability to drink and party with the best of them. When a song is trying to teach me a lesson, I’d much prefer it if the conveyers of the song are at least qualified to do so…or at least trying to be qualified to do so. I believe you wrote this song with sincerity, but it’s doubtful that MG sang it with the same sincerity.

Leeann: Not to mention their mad hunting skillz.

I don’t think it was the moral lapse that many people seem to think it was. I just think that if you are going to posture yourself as a manly manly hunter you should be prepared for giggles when those staring at your masculinity find out that the bear was tame. And in a cage. That’s the kind of manly, manly hunting that requires one to forever talk about your hunting skillz by spelling it with an ironic z.