Do pop-country songwriters know the score???

[Hollerin Ben]

Out here in California, where the country musicians are awesome, but also poor and forever obscure, I always assumed that the Nashville pop songwriters knew the score.

I always figured that they were basically like "yeah, I'm not really into country music, but I'm into making money by being a songwriter, so I'll write catchy, stupid songs that all the non-music fans will buy for background music. So long as I can master the art of crafting generic, soulless songs that still manage to stand out from other generic soulless songs, I'll be ok. Are they 'good songs', naw man, what do I look like - one of the rubes? This stuff doesn't offer any real insight, it's not mature, thoughtful music designed to explore the disconnect between what is and what should be, but as long as it makes that money money, I'll be a happy man."

but my experience at the9513 tells me that this is not the case. They seem to actually believe that they are writing good, important, country music. Furthermore, they offer sales numbers as evidence of their song's quality. This strikes me as completely delusional, but as someone with a sales background I know that it's helpful to sell yourself first.

So I ask you all this, do you think that, deep down, these guys know the score - that they are chipping away at country music's credibility and viability as an american artform for the sake of personal profit in the short term? Or do you think that they actually think that they are worthwhile torchbearers to the mantle of Harlan, Haggard, Hank, etc, and writing music that helps make people more human?

[Peter Durward Harris]

I think the sub-text of your argument is that if it's popular, it must be bad. Popularity (or lack of) and quality (or lack of) aren't the same thing, but nor are they mutually exclusive.

As far as comparing what's happening now with the past, "now" is always at a disadvantage, because with the passage of time, only the best from the past survives. If you look through the catalogs of any of the past songwriters, you'll find a lot of songs that you can't remember or maybe never heard. Yes, I've been around long enough to know that when the past was "now", people were saying how much better the old songs were. It was ever thus. In 30 or 40 years time, some people will be looking back nostalgically to the days when Rascal Flatts, Kenny Chesney and Carrie Uderwood ruled the country airwaves and saying how much better things were back then and let's bring back real country music. I may not live to see that happen (I'm nearly 57 now), but it will happen.

[Razor X]

In 30 or 40 years time, some people will be looking back nostalgically to the days when Rascal Flatts, Kenny Chesney and Carrie Uderwood ruled the country airwaves and saying how much better things were back then and let's bring back real country music.

Now that's scary.

You make a good and very valid point, but I honestly do not think that "now" is going to be remembered as a particularly good era in country music. At some point, another Randy Travis will come along (I hope) and be tremendously successful singing real country music, and the others will all hop on the bandwagon. It should have happened by now; ten years ago I thought we were starting to see signs of it when Sara Evans and Lee Ann Womack arrived on the scene. But I think that conglomerated radio and label consolidation were able to resist the market forces that ordinarily would have kicked in and swung the pendulum back. But I don't think they'll be able to resist forever. The major labels are beginning to implode, and terrestrial radio radio isn't going to be the dominant means of promoting new music for much longer. Once that deathgrip is loosened, it should be easier for acts that are new and different to at least have a chance to be heard. I just hope that when it happens there are enough people who still know and care what real country music is all about, because if not, all is well and truly lost.

[Peter Durward Harris]

Of course, I hope you're right but even before the nineties there was a pattern based on the pendulum metaphor. There were periods when country moved further from its roots, then periods when it swung back the other way, but the swing was never evenly balanced. The swing away from the roots was always futher than the swing back the other way. As I said somewhere else on 9513 before this forum was set up, there are a number of factors involved including urbanization and increased communication via a variety of media.

The consolidation of radio stations and record labels compounded the trend, at least for a while, but we still don't know the true impact of the internet. We know that it has introduced downloading as well as allowing country fans from all around the world to exchange ideas, and for those fans to communicate with musicians. Even people who don't download can buy music from anywhere in the developed world. That all this will lead to dramatic change is not in doubt, but the extent of it remains to be seen. At one level, it could be the saviour of traditional music forms, but equally it could accelerate the death of tradition. It's too early to say.

I'll cheer if Josh Turner and others like him are able to bring a more rootsy sound into the mainstream, but I don't see it happening. Traditional folk music long since ceased to be mainstream, but it survives at a cult level. I don't see why traditional country music should ultimately be any different. I'd like to be proved wrong.

[Razor X]

Traditional folk music long since ceased to be mainstream, but it survives at a cult level. I don't see why traditional country music should ultimately be any different. I'd like to be proved wrong.

Ultimately, it probably will survive at a cult level --- which is what it has always been, really, until the past 10 or 15 years. This is a niche genre -- and that's the problem. It enjoyed a huge surge in popularity in the early 90s, which was ultimately unsustainable. So now the record labels and radio are trying to recapture that by making music that appeals more to the masses. This genre was never meant to appeal to the masses and a lot gets lost when it's forced into the mainstream. Nobody wants to go back to the days when selling 100,000 copies of an album was cause for celebration, but that's probably what needs to happen. Once there's not enough money to be made, the singers and songwriters who truly love it can take it back. Hopefully it will remain just popular enough for them to be able to make a decent living at it.

[scooter]

Ashton Sheperd and Jamey Johnson will most likely be around for a while, and their success gives me some hope for the more traditional stuff making a comeback with the younger folks.

[Matt B]

Ashton Sheperd and Jamey Johnson will most likely be around for a while, and their success gives me some hope for the more traditional stuff making a comeback with the younger folks.

Both need to continue to deliver compelling singles or they won't be around as recording artists (both are songwriters though so they will continue to be employed in the business if they so desire).

I don't get where country is country music is considered a "niche" genre. Is a niche genre the genre that has enjoyed the most music radio stations in the country for DECADES. If it's such a niche genre, why does radio choose to still make country stations? Traditional country music should always have a place within mainstream country but I don't know if it will ever raise back to the level of the New Traditionalist movement.

[Razor X]

I don't get where country is country music is considered a "niche" genre. Is a niche genre the genre that has enjoyed the most music radio stations in the country for DECADES. If it's such a niche genre, why does radio choose to still make country stations? Traditional country music should always have a place within mainstream country but I don't know if it will ever raise back to the level of the New Traditionalist movement.

It's a niche genre in the sense that it simply doesn't appeal to as many people as other genres like pop, rock, and jazz do. It has times outsold those genres, but hasn't been able to sustain that level of sales. There was a huge outcry a few years back when George Jones was dropped from the MCA roster. Tony Brown defended the decision, saying ultimately, they couldn't afford to carry an artist who wasn't generating sufficient sales, even if the artist was considered a living legend. Compare that to rock music where veteran artists can still get recording deals with major labels. They might not get much radio airplay, but they can sell a few hundred thousand copies domestically and make up the rest in overseas sales, and still generate a profit for the label. Country artists, by and large, can't do that because the market for country outside of North America is miniscule. Some artists who have been committed to touring overseas have managed to keep their careers going when things weren't going so well for them at home, but generally it hasn't been enough to keep the major labels from dropping them.

[bu11]

Things have gotten a little off-topic here, so I'll try to address the original question.

If you ask Jamey Johnson the most meaningful song he's ever written, I doubt he will say "Honky Tonk Badonkadonk" or "Ladies Love Country Boys". Songwriters have to pay the bills... they have to cater to the popular majority, and clearly there's a formula that they all seem to be following. Badonkadonk is so outlandishly bad, I think even Johnson was surprised at that success.

Take a listen to either of Bobby Pinson's CDs (especially Songs for Somebody). It's solid, gritty country/rock. I was floored when I discovered that Pinson had penned "Want To" and the new brain-numbing "All I Want To Do" by Sugarland. I think if you take a closer look at a few of Nashville's successful writers, and some of their original material, you'll see that the music they are TRULY passionate about doesn't necessarily reflect their radio hits.

This may be a stretch, but look at Jefferey Steele. He's had plenty of lemon songs ("Me and My Gang" especially), but if you hear his version of "What Hurts the Most" live, it's touching.

But still, comparing Nashville songwriters to LA country artists is a stretch. You can say "oh, that Nashville stuff is crap", but then again, it does take talent to keep coming up with songs that appeal to the masses. If it were that easy, a lot more people would be doing that. I don't knock anyone's choice of career to make a good living. Anyways, the discrepancy is so wide these days, its almost like apples to oranges.

[Peter Durward Harris]

I think I addressed the original post fairly. On the specific issue of songwriters, Harlan Howard was cited as an example. He wrote a lot of great songs, albeit many of them were what was then classed as pop-country. But I remember looking through his website a few years ago at the complete list of titles of his published songs and it struck me that I don't know or can't remember the vast majority of these songs. My earlier point was and remains that when comparing the past with the present, we are comparing the BEST of the past with ALL of the present. On her overall record as a songwriter, I'd say that Matraca Berg is just as good as Harlan Howard or any of the other greats from the past. Sadly, she never made it as a singer but that's life. One of the songwriting greats from the past is Bill Anderson. A revival of interest in his songs (if not his own music) in the nineties allowed him to get his songwriting career going again, with some successes.

[Razor X]

If you ask Jamey Johnson the most meaningful song he's ever written, I doubt he will say "Honky Tonk Badonkadonk" or "Ladies Love Country Boys". Songwriters have to pay the bills... they have to cater to the popular majority, and clearly there's a formula that they all seem to be following. Badonkadonk is so outlandishly bad, I think even Johnson was surprised at that success.

I can understand the need to pay the bills, and to have to make the compromises between art and what is commercial. But there's no excuse for songs like Honkytonk Badonkadonk. I'll never forgive Jamey Johnson for that one. I doubt it is something he'll ever live down entirely. It's like those really bad movies that starving actors make; they always resurface to embarrass the actors once they've achieved stardom.

[Peter Durward Harris]

Billy Ray Cyrus was branded because of "Achy breaky heart". A lot of people could never take him seriously because of that song, which is a shame. If he had managed to make the big time without recording that song, he may have had a more rewarding career with greater credibility.

[Matt B]

If you ask Jamey Johnson the most meaningful song he's ever written, I doubt he will say "Honky Tonk Badonkadonk" or "Ladies Love Country Boys". Songwriters have to pay the bills... they have to cater to the popular majority, and clearly there's a formula that they all seem to be following. Badonkadonk is so outlandishly bad, I think even Johnson was surprised at that success.

I can understand the need to pay the bills, and to have to make the compromises between art and what is commercial. But there's no excuse for songs like Honkytonk Badonkadonk. I'll never forgive Jamey Johnson for that one. I doubt it is something he'll ever live down entirely. It's like those really bad movies that starving actors make; they always resurface to embarrass the actors once they've achieved stardom.

Jamey Johnson is not embarrassed by that song at all. He's proud of all of the songs he's written. Just because you don't like it or what it represents doesn't mean Jamey should feel the same way.

[Razor X]

Jamey Johnson is not embarrassed by that song at all.

He ought to be.

[Matt B]

For the record, other than the subject, why should he be ashamed to have written it. Also, Randy Houser is a co-writer on that one as well. He sings the new single "Anything Goes" (with vocals that may be better than Ronnie Dunn). Should he be ashamed of it too?

[Occasional Hope]

Because it's vulgar, crass, verging on misogynistic, has some really stupid lines, and makes people embarrassed to admit to being country fans? IMO everyone involved with that song should be ashamed of it (including Trace Adkins for recording it and the record company for putting it out).

[Razor X]

Because it's vulgar, crass, verging on misogynistic, has some really stupid lines, and makes people embarrassed to admit to being country fans? IMO everyone involved with that song should be ashamed of it (including Trace Adkins for recording it and the record company for putting it out).

Exactly. Songs like that bring down the whole genre, and everyone who had a role to play in getting that song on the airwaves should hang their heads in shame -- even if they have vocals that may be better than Ronnie Dunn's. What has that got to do with the price of cheese?

[Brady]

Because it's vulgar, crass, verging on misogynistic, has some really stupid lines, and makes people embarrassed to admit to being country fans? IMO everyone involved with that song should be ashamed of it (including Trace Adkins for recording it and the record company for putting it out).

Exactly. Songs like that bring down the whole genre, and everyone who had a role to play in getting that song on the airwaves should hang their heads in shame -- even if they have vocals that may be better than Ronnie Dunn's. What has that got to do with the price of cheese?

I dunno, I figured I'd be the last to defend "Honky-Tonk Badonkadonk," but it's kinda hard to get up in arms over a single song. Johnny Cash wrote and sang a song called "Flushed From The Bathroom of Your Heart" that's pretty bad. I think they were going for a parody of hip hop and did well in that regard. It's most likely made for those who are fans of both genres. You'll never catch me listening to it, though.

Oh, and I don't think Randy Houser's vocals are better than Ronnie Dunn's. He sounds like a mix between Dunn and Blake Shelton, which kinda gives him a knockoff vibe if he doesn't record some signature material.

[johnmaglite]

Johnny Cash wrote and sang a song called "Flushed From The Bathroom of Your Heart" that's pretty bad.

I'm pretty sure that song was written by Jack Clement.

[Brady]

Johnny Cash wrote and sang a song called "Flushed From The Bathroom of Your Heart" that's pretty bad.

I'm pretty sure that song was written by Jack Clement.

It looks like you're right. I coulda swore I remembered reading a story where Cash was sitting around with another songwriter and they were trying to come up with the worst song they could.