Asleep At The Wheel Wins Lifetime Achievement Award; Is Merle Haggard Greatest Living American Songwriter?

Count on Pam to be sensible.

I love Merle a bunch, but I have a hard time putting him above Bob Dylan as the greatest living writer. It’s become cliche to give Dylan as the answer for this question, but there’s a reason it’s a cliche, I guess.

It’s close, there isnt a doubt about that. If Dylan wasnt as successful as he has been commercially, it would be a lot easier for me to put him into the category of greats who never “put it all together” on an epic commercial and artistic scale. But for every country-anthem Haggard has written, Dylan has popped out a folk or rock anthem that has reached across certain genre lines, even bleeding into Country. That transcendence and the ability to basically reinvent himself and retain relevenace through the generations is why I put him just ahead of Haggard, I guess.

I’d put Kris Kristofferson above both Merle and Bob as a songwriter.

Kristofferson’s written some great songs, but Haggard and Dylan have written a lot more. And Haggard’s been writing great songs consistently and over a longer period of time than either of the other two. And they’re not only great, but highly accessible, too.

Pam may have hit it on the head with Carrie. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of hers) But,she grew up listening to her older sister’s 80’s rock bands, that’s why she can do a mean Axl Rose cover.

Here’s what I mean about Carrie..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M86l_0YKjUc

Guy Clark.

“I’d say the above quote from Def Leppard’s Phil Collen makes Pam’s point.”

Well, uh, no, it doesn’t; it makes a different and (as opposed to Pam’s) uninformed point, underlined by the interview with bandmate Vivian Campbell. These are guys who think, as Campbell puts it, that country music has to be about “about pickup trucks and her dog dying.”

And yeah, Haggard’s been more consistent; he’s got some mighty high points in his catalog throughout his career, not just in the first couple of decades, and he’s still writing some great songs. It’s fair to compare Dylan (though I think in the end Haggard wins out), but Clark and Van Zandt? Not so much. Some great songs, to be sure, but not hardly enough of them.

Townes Van Zandt is alive?

Its the Hag by a mile! Dylan sprung forth from that whole leftist “fellow traveler” folk scene populated by the slimy ilk of Pete Seeger and Joan Baez, so he is tarnished through guilt by association. Hag’s politics may be off kilter these days, but he will always remain the writer behind “Okie From Muskogee” and “The Fightin’ Side of Me”, and that makes him a true American folk hero in my book! I rate the Hag as the greatest country music singer-songwriter of all time, and besides Dylan never could sing worth a damn….

If we are going to argue about best songwriter in general, that’s a much tougher argument and would include many others easily (Clark, Shaver, Kristofferson, for example). One of the key points in Alden’s original statement that was posted above was that Haggard was both wildly successful from both a critical and commercial prespective. Kristofferson and Clark arent even in the same league with Dylan or Haggard when the commercial variable of the equation are thrown in the mix, and of course, there is that whole “dead” issue that TVZ has going against him in this race (sorry baron, couldnt resist :-)…

My Dylan favorites run a little bit earlier than Kelly’s – to me, Blonde On Blonde marks the end of his greatest stretch of albums, with Nashville Skyline, John Wesley Harding and Blood On The Tracks being of a lesser stature – but he’s pretty much on target. Blonde On Blonde, Bringing It All Back Home and especially Highway 61 Revisited are giants. And Rick’s post merely illustrates the way in which the kind of populism I referred to in the John Rich discussion is susceptible to distortion in some folks’ eyes. “Okie” is memorable in large part because it’s so easy to parody, or at least perform with a knowing wink (which is how Haggard does it these days), and while “Fighting Side” is, in my opinion, a great song, it’s matched by others, like “Irma Jackson,” that it takes a serious effort of will to ignore – though apparently Rick’s up to the job. Haggard and Seeger, who’s respected by a great many folks whom Rick respects, have a lot more in common than he likes to think.

And Jon, what about DESIRE, or do you not rate it?

Kelly, just by way of clarification, Bringing It All…, Highway 61 and Blonde On Blonde are all “post-Newport” albums, and definitely plugged-in – but they’re pre-motorcycle accident.

Steve, Desire’s a good album, as I recall – I haven’t listened to it in a long, long time – but the ones I mentioned are the ones where I think he was really at the peak of his powers.

I think its pretty hard to argue with Dylan. From the depth of his music the cultural impact, no one can compare. I dont like doing the country vs mainstream, but Dylan’s death would be front page news, his songs (specifically Blowin in the wind and Like A rolling stone) changed everything many times over

But Jim C, he hasnt been commercially successful like Haggard or Dylan. If its between those two, for me, its Hag hands down. For one, I can understand his vocal delivery, as well as his lyrics. But even besides that, I think Merle Haggard comes from a more authentic place than Dylan. I’ll take a working mans song from a dust bowl refugee over a Jew from MN any day.

“Guy Clark has been making great albums full of great songs for more than twenty five years, I suspect someone hasn’t been paying attention.”

Clark’s first album came out in 1975, the year Blood On The Tracks was released and the year after Merle Haggard’s 30th Album came out.

Stewman, how one assesses “cultural impact” is often related to one’s vantage point.

Idlewild, dust bowl refugees are more “authentic” than Jews from Minnesota? With respect to what?

That part’s not worth caring about.

Idlewildsouth, wow. I guess Rick should be glad to know that he isn’t the only one here who lets ideology get in the way of music appreciation, though I suspect his prejudices aren’t the same as yours.

“That part’s not worth caring about.”

so you admit you’re talking out of your butt again, I see.

“I didn’t mean it to come across as prejudiced; I just am so prejudiced that I’m sure that ‘a Jew from Minnesota’ isn’t a ‘working man’ by definition.”

Yeah, I think you just proved my point.

Steve Earle came from a solidly middle class background. Guess he can’t do folk either.

The only thing I can come back to in this debate of authenticity is my oft cited example of Vince Gill. While he was a golf playing son of a judge, he comes across as very genuine and sincere in his efforts to help the down trodden, including when he sings about it. Conversely, John Rich came from a humble background (according to his words), but he seems far from connected to the hard scrabble life, as much as he tries to sing about it. So, I guess I just can’t buy into the argument that one must be poor or even have once been poor in order to sing sincerely about blue collar life. I think there are other areas from where artists can draw. Money (or lack thereof) certainly isn’t a prerequisite for being able to sing country or folk music.

Its the Johnny Cash factor. Johnny Cash had never been in prison, but he was able to sing about being in prision so well that guys who had been in prison remembered serving time with him.

Leeann, I have no doubt about Vince Gill’s sincerity, but I’d counter that he’s not really known for working man anthems where his authenticity would be questioned. I’d say someone’s background does provide a perspective that allows a certain audience to more easily connect and identify with what that person is singing about. Jon mentioned accessibility earlier and I’d say Haggard is much more accessible than Dylan (which does go a bit beyond background).

Are we going to listen to someone sing about being a parent who hasn’t had kids? And if it came down to having a child of your own, whose opinion would you value more: a woman who has been through child birth or a woman who’s never had a baby? They may both offer compelling opinions, but I’d go with the person with experience. Likewise, would someone who hasn’t experienced loss be able to sing “Go Rest High On That Mountain” the way Vince Gill does? Perhaps, but Gill has authenticity on his side. So I don’t see why this wouldn’t apply to the blue collar perspective.

I dunno where that comes from, Stormy, but are we really going to attribute such stories solely to Cash’s singing? There was probably more to it: pervasive misconceptions, a great barroom story that became “truth,” faded memories, or even drugs perhaps?

Brady: That comes from the heart of the matter–if you are a good story teller you can tell a compelling story no matter what your experience.

And as a totally random aside, I’m one of the few Vince fans who’s never appreciated “Go Rest High.” The melody and anemic production makes it boring to me, though I’ll agree that Vince’s performance isgenuine.

“The part about him being a Jew was merely pointing towards the childhood would have had, given the culture of the Jewish race/faith. ”

That might have been what you intended, but that’s not what you said, and it in fact exhibits essentially the same problem as in the post that started the discussion. What do you know about the childhood he “would have had” as a Jewish American, and what do you know about his actual childhood? Evidently not that much, as you wrongly referred to him as coming from Duluth, which he didn’t (he grew up in Hibbing, a very different kind of place). So it seems you were leaning on stereotypes rather than on facts, which is generally a bad idea. I asked about the “authenticity” thing in particular since the discussion wasn’t about “working class” songwriters, or “poor songwriters” or even “folk songwriters,” but about American songwriters, and that meant it would be easy to read your comment as suggesting that a Jew from Minnesota (whether Duluth or HIbbing) is less “authentically” American than a white Christian raised in semi-rural California. Which would, of course, be wrong and bigoted. Hence my question – one which, regrettably, remains essentially unanswered.

Beyond that, I’m of the belief that a song – and that’s what the subject is, or at least was, not singers – stands or falls on its own merits. Knowing that Merle Haggard’s dad wasn’t blind, nor his mother deaf, and that he didn’t play in a family band with them as a child doesn’t make “Daddy Frank” a worse song, nor a less “authentic” one, no matter how far its first-person narrative strays from Haggard’s actual life. Songs are art, not reportage.

Your question was how does their respective upbringings authenticate them as writers. It may not have, in essence, been about folk songwriters, but considering the two writers that were the focal point of the discussion could both fall under this categorization, the question most certainly was about folk writers.

Yes, I did mistakenly recall the wrong city in which he grew up. I see how this point invalidates my entire argument.

What would I know about a Jewish persons childhood? I know they would be less inclined to lead the kind of life style that a dust bowl refugee would. I’m not exactly seeing how that is not a reasonable statement. The same way my childhood, as a southern baptist, son of a horse trainer, differs greatly from that of Mormon, daughter of an engineer ex-girlfriend, so do would Merle Haggard on Bob Dylans. From their faith, to the geography from which they came, to the different cultural experiences that those entail. I’m not saying I see Bob Dylan as less American, but, in my opinion, less authentic in his writing.

Sadly, this whole discussion has gotten really long and off topic, all because there are those that jump on the first thing that may be offensive, or heaven forbid, against what they think. I thought McCarthy was dead.

Well, I was felled by a stomach bug for a bit, so I want to thank Jon for making the points I would have made.